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Kenmore Washer not draining and poor spin

 
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jonnyt94
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Kenmore Washer not draining and poor spin Reply with quote

Hi, I am having a problem with my kenmore model # 110.20092993. It recently failed to drain and a smell of electrical overheating was present. This particular model has a touchpad and control board which I had to replace about a year ago. When performing the neutral drain/spin test, the motor just hummed so I replaced the drive motor and when I tried to do the neutral drain spin test again, the tub began to spin but the drain pump wasn't draining. The tub was still full of water....

At this point I thought I had a bad control board again so I went ahead and replaced that as well, much to my disappointmoint changed nothing. Not knowing any better I thought I may have a bad capacitor and replaced that as well, again no change. The tub will spin but not drain the basket first, overworking the motor and causing what I smelled to begin with.

I'm tired of throwing money away on enough spare parts to build a new machine, but now I am wondering if my water level transducer is not working properly and not telling the motor to drain the tub first before making it spin, or if this is bypassed in the diagnostic test. Another reason I suspect the water level is because it wont stop filling when it reaches the proper level.

Is there a way I can test this switch? I bought the manual from sears but the test describes a three pin switch when my machine has only two with a seperate 3 prong harness since it is controlled by the board and not a timer.

I wish I had found this message board before doing all this, as I am very hopeful you have the answer after reading as much as I could find on this subject, yet not seeing the same symptoms I have described. Any help at all will be greatly appreciated! Thanks !
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: washer Reply with quote

If I understand you properly, the unit will not drain? The pump is attached directly to the same shaft that the transmission is, so draining begins the moment the motor kicks into spin. I would take the pump off and do a thorough inspection, including how difficult it is to turn the pump shaft manually. This machine does not have a Neutral drain transmission, so it is designed to go directly into spin with the tub full.

Try this test with no clothes in the washer:
Fill the machine to high level. Stop the cycle and set the machine to a spin onlycycle and time the discharge. The pump must discharge the whole full tub within 70 seconds or the pump is blocked or bad.

For that matter, anything else binding the tub will also cause the motor to bog down in spin, such as an object caught between the spin basket and outer tub. The control you mentioned has nada to do with this...this is a mechanical issue. If the machine overfills, I always remove the airline tubing from the pressure switch and blow down into the tube forcefully. Sometimes soap and other gunk can clog the tub end of this line and cause the switch above not to register a fill.

A hanging water inlet valve can also cause overfill as well as the actual level switch. The Tech sheet inside the top panel of your machine tells you how to test the contacts of the water level switch.
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jonnyt94
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Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for replying so quickly!

I did test the drain function of the machine in the diagnostic test and it didn't drain the tub, just started spinning it. I do understand that this is supposed to happen but in the past it would drain the tub before spinning it during this test. Is it possible that the speed of the motor has something to do with how this function works? Also, there is another valve located on the drain line called the drain recirculation valve, could this be causing some part of this problem?

I will take apart the pump and inspect it thoroughly, it does spin no problem because I did check that when I replaced the motor. I did also spin the tranny shaft when I had the motor off and it also spun fairly easy counterclockwise. Spinning it clockwise it spins about a turn of the shaft and then I can feel some resistance, after which it still spins, but with more torque required.

I also took the tube off the water level switch and blew it out forcefully. There does not seem to be any obstructions in the tube but I will take the top plastic cover off the tub to see if there is any crud between the basket and the tub and make sure that it is clear.

Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it !
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jonnyt94
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Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: still no go Reply with quote

Ok, I drained the water from the tub using a shop vac on the drain hose. Since the machine was unplugged, I had to reach down and hold the drain /recirculation solenoid open in order for the water to leave through the drain line, I assume this should be normal with no power to it?

After all the water was gone, I removed the pump and inspected it thoroughly, it seems to spin fairly easily and showed no signs of obstructions or evidence of leaking, which I didn't have any leaking problem that I was aware of anyway.

Next I removed the agitator, nothing was stuck under it or on the shaft. Then I took off the plastic cover from the inner basket and outer tub, looked down inside and saw that it looked pretty clean. Since I was almost there anyway, I went ahead and removed the inner basket just to make sure, and there were no objects or lost clothing articles in there either. There was a little grunge buildup on the shaft but that wasn't even touching anything and I cleaned it all off anyway.

So that is the way it sits right now. I do notice that if I spin the basket by hand counterclockwise, it rotates rather freely, almost making a full spin on its own if I spin it hard enough. I can also see the agitator moving back and forth. Clockwise, on the other hand, is a different story. It will spin ok but it seems to require more effort and it won't spin freely at all like in the other direction if I give it a good push. This, I suspect, should be normal or it would seem the clutch would be too loose.

I'll hold off doing anything else for now until I hear from you for what I should check next.

Thanks again!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: washer Reply with quote

OK, if it spins and will drain only if you hold the drain valve open manually, then the valve is not working under normal conditions. To find out if it is any good, use the tech sheet inside the control panel to perform OHM tests on the valve solenoid, plus check for the presence of 120 volts at the valve solenoid when the unit shold be draining. I suspect a bad valve or even a bad electronic control. (The fact that you replaced it not long ago has no bearing on anything)

I am providing you with the same tech sheet below that we use in the field. Hopefully you will perform the diagnostics mentioned in the document to pinpoint the problem. If the machine was not draining, no doubt it also wore the clutch out from trying to push a full tub for too long.

Tech Sheet for this machine
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jonnyt94
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Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes this is the tech sheet that I have been using to run the diagnostic tests. I will re-assemble the machine and try to run the ohm tests on the solenoids for the drain and fill valves and let you know how i make out. So far I have had the thing unplugged with the cabinet off but it sounds like I have to power it up while I test the functions.

Thanks again, I wish I found this place before I spent the money on the new control board, motor, and capacitor, all which cannot be returned....Live and learn I guess Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: power Reply with quote

You CAN power it up with the cabinet off ...just bypass the lid switch and get busy!
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jonnyt94
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Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I put it all back together, put a jumper in the lid switch plug, and started running the diagnostic tests again. Unfortunately it still has exactly the same symptom, the tub spins and obviously the water pump is spinning as well. Also the drain valve is open like it's supposed to be but water is still not draining, just spinning around in the tub, overworking the motor.

All the other valves seem to be working, the water level, recirculation, and all inlet valves. I'll be danged if I can figure out why that pump is not pumping. The hose is clear because I drained it out through it with the wet/dry vac yesterday. I even tried running the spin test without any water in the tub and the drain pump began to squeal after a few minutes.

I'm kind of leaning towards getting a new pump and see if that cures this, but after spending so much on all those other components, I just don't want to throw away even more money if something else could be causing this.

One last thing, the tech sheet calls for it to be a "neutral/spin test", but it never sees any kind of neutral.

Could the gearbox be at fault here? I can't find any tests in the tech sheet to test it, but one slight thing still bothers me, I don't know if this is important, but the speed of the agitation is wrong for the sequence in the agitation test. It should go High, med, then low. But it goes from Med to High, then low, I think that is controlled only by the speed of the motor, which makes me think the control board, but I swapped out the new one I just bought with my old one and it does exactly the same things...

I'm confused and getting a headache from this thing, I think I can reason things out as good as the next guy, but I'll be dipped if can get a handle on this one. I just want to be able to get the right part to fix it. I certainly think the pump is bad, but it looks fine and the motor is turning, the valve is open, the water should go away, but it stays there, mocking me.... Embarassed

I'd sure like to hear your take on this, and thanks again for all the help you've given me.
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Virtual Repairman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: washer Reply with quote

Uh, replace the pump then call me in the morning Smile

May as well invest in a new pump at this point...it should never squeal.

Further note about Neutral drain...it only works after the transmission has agitated first.


p.s I was kidding about calling me...a reply after the repair is made will do just fine .
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jonnyt94
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'll follow the links on the site for the pump. I hope this does it, the last thing I want to replace is that gearcase. It says to check it in the tech sheetfor thos e symptoms, but how do you check it aside from taking it out and taking it apart?

Thanks again and I'll let you know how it works out!

P.S. Order has been placed, hope I can get it before the weekend!
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jonnyt94
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the new pump arrived today but the machine still runs incorrectly. When checking the spin and agitation tests, it does both in this order:

1. medium spin/ medium agitate
2.fast spin/ fast agitate
3.slow spin/ slow agitate

According to the tech sheet, if it does not operate at specific speeds, check the wire harness connections, the motor, and the gearcase.

The motor does operate at all speeds, just not in the correct order, plus it's a brand new motor.

After inspecting the wire harness, the connections look good, but the wires themselves near the motor appear to have been overheated and the electrical tape that wrapped around them every 8-10 inches had melted off but the wires themselves look fine except where the tape used to be. The plug that goes into the motor also looks ok.

Lastly, I removed the gearcase and visually inspected the clutch and also the brake/drive. Everything looks in good condition with no noticable broken pieces. There were a few small spots of oil around the inside of the base, but this is average according to other posts here. Also, if I stop the test during the first(medium,but supposed to be fast) section of the test, the agitator shaft won't move. If I stop the test during the second part of the test(fast, but supposed to be medium) the agitator shaft spins fairly easily. I don't know if this sounds like the gearcase is bad because it works in the different speeds, just not the way it's supposed to. The repair manual says there are no servicing instructions for the gearcase. I don't know if the gearcase is malfunctioning or something else is causing it.

Aside from testing every single wire individually in the wiring harness, I'm not sure what to do next...

Thanks for any help!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: washer Reply with quote

Tests aside, what happens when you select a Normal wash cycle shut the lid and let it run?

When does it fail and at what part of the cycle is there a problem.?

It's starting to sound more like control issues from here, but I can't see the machine to check it and I'm not real sure you know what's going on either Smile

Have you considered paying someone to come check it? At least their work is guaranteed... your motor and control should have a year warranty if they are new like you said, right?
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jonnyt94
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually haven't just let it run through a cycle, I've just been running the tests. I'll try that and see what happens.

I guess if I can't figure it out, I'll have to call a repairman to come and find out why it's still not working. The new parts are guaranteed for a year, so if one of them is bad and doing exactly what the old ones did, I'll be able to have them replaced...

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!
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jonnyt94
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, upon trying to run a normal cycle, the tub fills up to the proper level, and when it goes into agitation cycle motor hums and obviously something is binding up.

I got sick of draining the tub with the shop vac so I decided to try something different. With the tub still full of water, I took off the cabinet, unclipped the pump and moved it to the side. Then I unplugged the motor and capacitor and removed them. Next I put my old motor and capacitor back in without the coupler, hooked it all back up and tried running the neutral drain/spin test.

Don't ya know it started draining that tub just like its supposed to, and at the right speeds... 1.fast, 2.medium, and 3.slow. So I decided to do the same with the agitation test, just to determine the motor speeds. This also went according to what it's supposed to do.

So, since the controls are working correctly, the pump and valves also, the clutch and drive/brake assembles as well, leaves only the gearcase to be the culprit all along.

Just figured I'd share this info with you and the benefit of everyone else who reads this on this board. Thanks for being here and letting people try and help themselves to solve problems, this one was a real doozy!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject: washer Reply with quote

Yes, sometimes it can be frustrating when you have tried everything but the worst scenario, but that is human nature. I suppose a technician might have come in and tested the motor under load and without a load to see the difference in amp draw, but most homeowners do not have a clamp-on ammeter in their repertoire of tools. I am truly sorry you had previously replaced all those parts too, and hopefully next time you have a problem, you'll bring it up here for some input before tossing parts at it.

Look at the bright side...you now will have practically a new washer and a wealth of knowledge to boot~!

Good luck!
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jonnyt94
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Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, that's what keeps me goin, plus all the spare parts in case of future mishaps Very Happy

Unfortunately for me, I didn't find this site until after I got all the new parts, except for the pump....

Anyway, now I do know where to look for help in the future, the first time, and I appreciate all the info I learned here trying to solve this one. Thanks again!
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