The Virtual Repairman's Appliance Help

[peter wolf]

Kenmore SM9710812-A, about 4 years old. Fills fine, agitates ok, motor rotating CCW as viewed from front. When rinse cycle begins, there is a brief pause, then motor begins to spin CW, the tub begins to spin, and it seems that the Motor Start Switch clicks on and off, until the motor gets pretty hot, starts to smell, and then goes into thermal protection mode. After it cools it will go back on, but the problem continues again.
Is the spin cycle supposed to begin at the start of the rinse cycle? Seems like that might be why it overheats. If I rotate the dial to spin, the same thing happens.

I just replaced the pump and coupling after a repairman gave me that as his diagonses (and wanted $220 to do the repair!) but the problems remains the same.

[Virtual Repairman]

If the tub bearing is bad, the unit will seize up during the spin cycle, causing an extreme drag on the motor and coupling. For that matter, something caught between the inner and outer tub, such as a sock, could prevent the tub from spinning, but would likely not cause the motor stuttering you described.

The spin cycle on this unit is designed to start after the tub has drained approximately 2/3 of the way down from the first wash cycle. There is a pause in the drain cycle made in the timer (20 sec), which allows the Neutral Drain mechanism in the transmission to engage. This starts the tub spinning. If your machine is spinning immediately before draning, your transmission is bad. It should drain first, then pause, then spin after the wash cycle.

On the other hand, have you tried just setting the unit on a spin cycle to see if it can do this without issues? If the unit will spin normally without the other problems you mentioned during the first rinse cycle, then your timer is bad, causing the motor to run in opposing directions at the same time.

And for what it's worth, don't ever call that idiot out again that gave you the old "pump, coupling" routine. Ever see some of these characters on TV?

[Guest]

Well, I looked around with a bright light, and couldn't see anything btw the inner/outer tub. The motor stutter I described is more like a solenoid clicking on and off. I can see something in the motor shifting forwards and backwards as it cycles off and on. It's tough to see much tho'. But the noise seems to be coming from the Motor Start Switch.

How would I test if the tub bearing is bad?

How can a motor run in opposite directions at the same time? But it you mean it changes directions back and forth, that might account for the sound it makes. I'll see if I can determine that.

You say the lack of a 20 sec pause in the drain cycle would indicate the the transmission is bad. Yet you also say 'There is pause in the drain cycle made in the timer, which allows the Neutral Drain mechanism in the transmission to engage. Wouldn't the failure to pause be a timer problem?

Right now I don't know if I've got a transmission or timer tub bearing problem. How can I test?

Thanks,

Peter Wolf

[Virtual Repairman]

Let me clarify:

When the machine stops after the first wash, then next thing to happen is a Neutral drain. This means the tub is not moving, but the water is draining. With me so far?

The next step is a pause in the drain cycle (Made by the timer). At this pause, a stop pawl in the transmission engages (with a clunk) and the machine starts to spin. In other words, the tub must NOT spin directly after agitating in the wash cycle until the timer makes a pause. If this part of the cycle works OK, then go on.

The timer can actually send power to the motor to turn in either direction, or if one contact is stuck in the timer, can actually send power to both CW and CCW windings at the same time. This can cause the motor symptoms you mention. So can a loose wire in the Molex connector at the motor.

This condition can be diagnosed with a voltmeter at the timer, using the wiring diagram in the console to identify the motor connections at the timer. If this test shows the timer output to be OK, then your motor is likely bad.

As I mentioned, if you can make the motor repeat this episode (Chattering) by placing the unit directly into a spin cycle instead of going thru the wash, etc., then the motor is likely bad. I suspect the motor.

[Guest]

The timer can actually send power to the motor to turn in either direction, or if one contact is stuck in the timer, can actually send power to both CW and CCW windings at the same time. This can cause the motor symptoms you mention. So can a loose wire in the Molex connector at the motor.

This condition can be diagnosed with a voltmeter at the timer, using the wiring diagram in the console to identify the motor connections at the timer. If this test shows the timer output to be OK, then your motor is likely bad.

If I advance to the spin cycle and start, it works fine. I think the motor getting power to both CW and CCW windings fits the symptoms. I've removed the timer, but after pouring over the manual and the wiring diagram, I still don't understand how to test. Which contacts would be stuck? Stuck open or closed? I figure that one contact closes during the agitate cycle, (sending the CCW winding of the motor power), and another contact closes for the rinse cycle, (sending the CW winding of the motor power) but that both should not be closed at the same time. Is that correct? Can you help me to identify which contacts should be closed during the rinse cycle, and which ones should not be?

Thanks for the help.

Peter

[Virtual Repairman]

Stop what you are doing and replace the timer.

You already determined it is the problem, and you don't realize it.

[Peter Wolf]

Didn't realize I'd solved the problem - and before spending $100+ for another timer, I'd like to understand what's not working. The timer seems to be a pretty simple device, kinda like one of those crank music cylinders that move along and hit the right note, only in this case it moves along and closes a contact. How can it fail? None of the plastic timing pieces seem broken. The contacts seem to move up and down, and make connections. What makes you so sure it's the timer?

For that matter, why is allowing it to go thru it's full cycle, hit the point where it should drain/spin causes the problem be different from manually advancing to spin, and not have the problem occur?

Questions questions questions.

I can see the motor is doing something like shifting gears, each time it clicks the windings seem shifts forwards and backwards.

Help!

[Peter Wolf]

I've discovered more when the motor problem occurs. I had thought that going directly to spin didn't cause the problem, but it seems that it's more a function of how much water is in there. If it can't get up to speed, it clicks off and on, the rotor of the motor shifts back and forth, and after a time, it overheats and shuts off. If it gets up to speed (I gave it a little manual help when there was only a small amount of water), the clicking stops and it spins like normal.

Makes me think the motor is weak, or the transmission is slipping. But why doesn't it pump out water before it starts to spin? Btw agitate and spin there is only a 3 second pause.

[Virtual Repairman]

I can't see the machine from here, so I depend on you to run thru the various checkout procedures as I mention them.

Let's do this again, only follow the steps I recommend-

Please start a new wash cycle on "Full" water level and let the machine advance thru the wash. When the wash cycle is over, here is what should occur:

a) Machine stops agitating at end of wash cycle.

b) After a few seconds of pause, the machine should begin to drain. Not spin, drain. If it spins right away the transmission has a bad Neutral drain mechanism and must be replaced.


Please let me know what happens during this test.

[Guest]

Ok, I ran it from the start of the permapress cycle, and after the agitation, a few clunks and click, it starts to spin and the motor begins its clicking.

[Virtual Repairman]

Great!
Now we have a concise diagnosis that you can take to the bank. Remember, I mentioned this in my very first reply to your post regarding the sequence of events in the wash cycle.

If a transmission overhaul is not in your line of expertise, might I recommed a new machine?

I believe the gearcase runs about $150 along with the spanner tool and maybe the repair manual to guide you, you'd spend about $200 to do this yourself. Not that we wouldn't be happy to sell you the parts

[Peter Wolf]

The part that needs replacing is the gearbox? Any other parts necessary for the repair? (other than aforementioned spanner)

Would the clicking sound of the motor indicate that there's problems with that too? I'd hate to keep replacing parts in this thing.

What would you recommend for a new washer?

Thanks for the advice.

Peter

[Virtual Repairman]

That's the thing, Peter. I hate to have you think about a transmission job, mainly because it's opening a can of worms, so to speak. There'll always be somthing else noticed during the teardown, such as a bad bearing or seal, and this can nickel and dime you to death, not to mention the long periods of down-time for the washer.

I heartily recommend a new machine, since there would be a 5 year warranty on the tranny, plus you wouldn't feel bad about investing $200 in an old machine just to have something else crap out in 6 months. A Kenmore machine will last about 7-10 years if you're lucky.

As far as brands, I recommend the front-loading machines. Maytag makes an excellent one for $799. I currently own a Neptune myself, and couldn't be happier, despite all the hoo-haw about this product in its earlier years. In fact, I just ordered the MAH5500 machine for my guest house. Last year, it saved 5,000 gallons of water that a top-load machine would have used. And, front-loaders do not have a transmission!

Food for thought.